diff --git a/doc/src/spokes.rst b/doc/src/spokes.rst
index 6c3f47c69..b006bac80 100644
--- a/doc/src/spokes.rst
+++ b/doc/src/spokes.rst
@@ -62,30 +62,7 @@ is a sample json file:
 ph_ob
 ^^^^^
 
-This bounder is similar to the Lagrangian bounder, except that it executes a PH
-algorithm to obtain its own W values. The idea is that it can use lower rho values
-so as to obtain better outer (lower when minimizing) bounds. It can also provide
-a Lagrangian bound even if the hub does not provide lagrangian multipliers.
-
-The easiest way to use ``ph_ob`` is via the vanilla ``ph_ob_spoke`` method
-as illustrated in ``examples.farmer.archive.farmer_cylinders.py``. This method takes values
-from the config object (assuming the config object's ``ph_ob`` method
-was called as shown in the function ``examples.farmer.archive.farmer_cylinders._parse_args``)
-and sets up the options for the spoke.
-
-The option ``ph-ob-initial-rho-rescale-factor`` defaults to 0.1, so if nothing
-other than ``--ph-ob`` is given on the command line, the ph_ob spoke will use
-one tenth the default rho (it might use one tenth of rho from
-a rho setter if one is configured in the cylinders program and passed to the ph_ob
-constructor). Additional control over rho values
-is provided by the ``phob-rho-rescale-factors-json`` option which is a json
-file that provides a dictionary with keys that are iteration numbers and values
-that are rescale factors. Note that all rescaling is cummulative.
-
-See ``examples.uc.gradient_uc_cylinders.py`` for an example that uses a cost-based
-rho setter for the uc problem in the ph_ob cylinder.
-
-As of August, 2024 use of a gradient based rho with ph_ob is untested.
+This cylinder was deprecated in August of 2025 in favor of ph_dual.
 
 Reduced Costs
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
diff --git a/examples/afew.py b/examples/afew.py
index d5d72cecd..c7f351317 100644
--- a/examples/afew.py
+++ b/examples/afew.py
@@ -48,10 +48,6 @@ def do_one(dirname, progname, np, argstring):
 
 
 # for farmer, the first arg is num_scens and is required
-do_one("farmer/archive", "farmer_cylinders.py", 3,
-       "--num-scens=3 --bundles-per-rank=0 --max-iterations=50 "
-       "--default-rho=1 --sep-rho --display-convergence-detail "
-       "--solver-name={} --xhatshuffle --lagrangian --use-norm-rho-updater".format(solver_name))
 do_one("farmer", "farmer_lshapedhub.py", 2,
        "--num-scens=3 --bundles-per-rank=0 --max-iterations=50 "
        "--solver-name={} --rel-gap=0.0 "
diff --git a/examples/distr/distr_admm_cylinders.py b/examples/distr/distr_admm_cylinders.py
index 82ead40dc..c5bb16080 100644
--- a/examples/distr/distr_admm_cylinders.py
+++ b/examples/distr/distr_admm_cylinders.py
@@ -32,7 +32,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.aph_args()
     cfg.xhatxbar_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.tracking_args()
     cfg.add_to_config("run_async",
                          description="Run with async projective hedging instead of progressive hedging",
@@ -46,7 +45,7 @@ def _parse_args():
 # This need to be executed long before the cylinders are created
 def _count_cylinders(cfg): 
     count = 1
-    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian", "ph_ob"] # All the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
+    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian"] # All the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
     # Add to this list any cfg attribute that would create a spoke
     for cylname in cfglist:
         if cfg[cylname]:
@@ -133,12 +132,7 @@ def main():
                                               rho_setter = None)
 
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = None,
-                                          variable_probability=variable_probability)
+    # ph outer bounder spoke removed August 2025 (use ph_dual)
 
     # xhat looper bound spoke
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
@@ -147,8 +141,6 @@ def main():
     list_of_spoke_dict = list()
     if cfg.lagrangian:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatxbar_spoke)
 
diff --git a/examples/farmer/CI/farmer_rho_demo.py b/examples/farmer/CI/farmer_rho_demo.py
index b9ae42a47..b3035bb01 100644
--- a/examples/farmer/CI/farmer_rho_demo.py
+++ b/examples/farmer/CI/farmer_rho_demo.py
@@ -43,7 +43,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.fwph_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
     cfg.lagranger_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.xhatshuffle_args()
     cfg.dynamic_gradient_args() # gets gradient args for free
     cfg.add_to_config("crops_mult",
@@ -144,11 +143,7 @@ def main():
                                               scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
                                               rho_setter = rho_setter)
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = rho_setter)        
+    # ph outer bounder spoke was removed August 2025
 
     # xhat looper bound spoke
     if cfg.xhatlooper:
@@ -165,8 +160,6 @@ def main():
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
     if cfg.lagranger:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagranger_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)        
     if cfg.xhatlooper:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatlooper_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatshuffle:
diff --git a/examples/farmer/archive/farmer_cylinders.py b/examples/farmer/archive/farmer_cylinders.py
index 7d961afd3..371b5514c 100644
--- a/examples/farmer/archive/farmer_cylinders.py
+++ b/examples/farmer/archive/farmer_cylinders.py
@@ -43,7 +43,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.fwph_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
     cfg.lagranger_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.xhatshuffle_args()
     cfg.converger_args()
     cfg.wxbar_read_write_args()
@@ -154,15 +153,7 @@ def main():
         lagranger_spoke = vanilla.lagranger_spoke(*beans,
                                               scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
                                               rho_setter = rho_setter)
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = rho_setter)
-        if cfg.sep_rho:
-            vanilla.add_sep_rho(ph_ob_spoke, cfg)
-        if cfg.coeff_rho:
-            vanilla.add_coeff_rho(ph_ob_spoke, cfg)
+    # ph outer bounder spoke removed August 2025
 
     # xhat looper bound spoke
     if cfg.xhatlooper:
@@ -184,8 +175,6 @@ def main():
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
     if cfg.lagranger:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagranger_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatlooper:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatlooper_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatshuffle:
diff --git a/examples/run_all.py b/examples/run_all.py
index 88cf8da83..8fcde1b67 100644
--- a/examples/run_all.py
+++ b/examples/run_all.py
@@ -386,7 +386,7 @@ def do_one_mmw(dirname, modname, runefstring, npyfile, mmwargstring):
 
         do_one("uc", "gradient_uc_cylinders.py", 15,
                "--bundles-per-rank=0 --max-iterations=100 --default-rho=1 "
-               "--xhatshuffle --ph-ob --num-scens=5 --max-solver-threads=2 "
+               "--xhatshuffle --lagrangian --num-scens=5 --max-solver-threads=2 "
                "--lagrangian-iter0-mipgap=1e-7 --ph-mipgaps-json=phmipgaps.json "
                f"--solver-name={solver_name} --xhatpath uc_cyl_nonants.npy "
                "--rel-gap 0.00001 --abs-gap=1 --intra-hub-conv-thresh=-1 "
@@ -412,7 +412,7 @@ def do_one_mmw(dirname, modname, runefstring, npyfile, mmwargstring):
                "--solver-name={}".format(solver_name))
         # as of May 2022, this one works well, but outputs some crazy messages
         do_one("uc", "uc_ama.py", 3,
-               "--bundles-per-rank=0 --max-iterations=2 "
+              "--bundles-per-rank=0 --max-iterations=2 "
                "--default-rho=1 --num-scens=3 "
                "--fixer-tol=1e-2 --lagranger --xhatshuffle "
                "--solver-name={}".format(solver_name))
diff --git a/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py b/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
index cfe0a7db6..fc87b6da5 100644
--- a/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
+++ b/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
@@ -35,7 +35,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.xhatxbar_args()
     cfg.fwph_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.tracking_args()
     cfg.add_to_config("run_async",
                          description="Run with async projective hedging instead of progressive hedging",
@@ -52,7 +51,7 @@ def _parse_args():
 
 def _count_cylinders(cfg):
     count = 1
-    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian", "ph_ob"] # All the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
+    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian"] # All the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
     # Add to this list any cfg attribute that would create a spoke
     for cylname in cfglist:
         if cfg[cylname]:
@@ -127,13 +126,7 @@ def _wheel_creator(cfg, n_cylinders, scenario_creator, variable_probability, all
     if cfg.fwph:
         fw_spoke = vanilla.fwph_spoke(*beans, scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs)
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = None,
-                                          all_nodenames=all_nodenames,
-                                          variable_probability=variable_probability)
+    # ph outer bounder spoke removed August 2025 (replace with ph_dual)
 
     # xhat looper bound spoke
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
@@ -148,8 +141,6 @@ def _wheel_creator(cfg, n_cylinders, scenario_creator, variable_probability, all
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(fw_spoke)
     if cfg.lagrangian:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatxbar_spoke)
 
diff --git a/examples/uc/gradient_uc_cylinders.py b/examples/uc/gradient_uc_cylinders.py
index a2be8a6e1..d918fa285 100644
--- a/examples/uc/gradient_uc_cylinders.py
+++ b/examples/uc/gradient_uc_cylinders.py
@@ -41,7 +41,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.xhatshuffle_args()
     cfg.cross_scenario_cuts_args()
     cfg.dynamic_gradient_args() # gets you gradient_args for free
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.add_to_config("ph_mipgaps_json",
                          description="json file with mipgap schedule (default None)",
                          domain=str,
@@ -176,11 +175,7 @@ def main():
     if xhatlooper:
         xhatlooper_spoke = vanilla.xhatlooper_spoke(*beans, scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs)
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = rho_setter)        
+    # ph outer bounder spoke removed August 2025
 
     # xhat shuffle bound spoke
     if xhatshuffle:
@@ -195,8 +190,6 @@ def main():
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(fw_spoke)
     if lagrangian:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)        
     if xhatlooper:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatlooper_spoke)
     if xhatshuffle:
diff --git a/mpisppy/cylinders/ph_ob.py b/mpisppy/cylinders/ph_ob.py
deleted file mode 100644
index 08d163254..000000000
--- a/mpisppy/cylinders/ph_ob.py
+++ /dev/null
@@ -1,187 +0,0 @@
-###############################################################################
-# mpi-sppy: MPI-based Stochastic Programming in PYthon
-#
-# Copyright (c) 2024, Lawrence Livermore National Security, LLC, Alliance for
-# Sustainable Energy, LLC, The Regents of the University of California, et al.
-# All rights reserved. Please see the files COPYRIGHT.md and LICENSE.md for
-# full copyright and license information.
-###############################################################################
-# Runs PH with smaller rhos in order to compute a lower bound
-# By default rescale the hub "default-rho" values (multiply by rf) but there are other options to set rho:
-# - set rho manually (use _hack_set_rho)
-# - use rho rescale factors written in a json file
-# - use gradient-based rho (to be tested)
-
-import json
-import mpisppy.cylinders.spoke
-import mpisppy.utils.find_rho as find_rho
-import mpisppy.utils.gradient as grad
-import mpisppy.utils.sputils as sputils
-from mpisppy.utils.wtracker import WTracker
-
-class PhOuterBound(mpisppy.cylinders.spoke.OuterBoundSpoke):
-    """Updates its own W and x using its own rho.
-    """
-    converger_spoke_char = 'B'
-
-    def ph_ob_prep(self):
-        # Scenarios are created here
-        self.opt.PH_Prep(attach_prox=True)
-        self.opt._reenable_W()
-        self.opt._create_solvers()
-        if "ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json" in self.opt.options and\
-            self.opt.options["ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json"] is not None:
-            with open(self.opt.options["ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json"], "r") as fin:
-                din = json.load(fin)
-            self.rho_rescale_factors = {int(i): float(din[i]) for i in din}
-        else:
-            self.rho_rescale_factors = None
-
-        # use gradient rho
-        self.use_gradient_rho = False
-        if "ph_ob_gradient_rho" in self.opt.options:
-            assert self.opt.options["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]["cfg"] is not None, "You need to give a cfg to use gradient rho."
-            self.use_gradient_rho = True
-            print("PH Outer Bounder uses an iterative gradient-based rho setter")
-            self.cfg = self.opt.options["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]["cfg"]
-            if "rho_denom" in  self.opt.options["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]:
-                self.cfg.grad_rho_denom = self.opt.options["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]["rho_denom"]
-            self.cfg.grad_cost_file_out = '_temp_grad_cost_file_ph_ob.csv'
-            self.cfg.grad_rho_file_out = '_temp_grad_rho_file_ph_ob.csv'  # out??? xxxx tbd
-            # the xhat used here is the same as in the hub
-            self.grad_object = grad.Find_Grad(self.opt, self.cfg)
-            self.rho_setter = find_rho.Set_Rho(self.cfg).rho_setter
-            self.grad_object.write_grad_cost()
-
-
-    def _phsolve(self, iternum):
-        verbose = self.opt.options['verbose']
-        teeme = False
-        if "tee-rank0-solves" in self.opt.options and self.opt.cylinder_rank == 0:
-            teeme = self.opt.options['tee-rank0-solves']
-
-        self.opt.solve_loop(
-            solver_options=self.opt.current_solver_options,
-            dtiming=False,
-            gripe=True,
-            tee=teeme,
-            verbose=verbose,
-            warmstart=True,
-            need_solution=True,
-        )
-        if iternum == 0:
-            return self.opt.Ebound(verbose)
-        return None
-
-    def _phboundsolve(self, iternum):
-        self.opt._disable_prox()
-        verbose = self.opt.options['verbose']
-        teeme = False
-        if "tee-rank0-solves" in self.opt.options and self.opt.cylinder_rank == 0:
-            teeme = self.opt.options['tee-rank0-solves']
-        if iternum == 0:
-            warmstart = sputils.WarmstartStatus.USER_SOLUTION
-        else:
-            warmstart = True
-        self.opt.solve_loop(
-            solver_options=self.opt.current_solver_options,
-            dtiming=False,
-            gripe=True,
-            tee=teeme,
-            verbose=verbose,
-            warmstart=warmstart,
-            need_solution=False,
-        )
-        self.opt._reenable_prox()
-        # Compute the resulting bound
-        return self.opt.Ebound(verbose)
-
-
-    def _rescale_rho(self, rf):
-        # IMPORTANT: the scalings accumulate.
-        # E.g., 0.5 then 2.0 gets you back where you started.
-        for (sname, scenario) in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            for ndn_i, xvar in scenario._mpisppy_data.nonant_indices.items():
-                scenario._mpisppy_model.rho[ndn_i] *= rf
-
-    def _display_rho_values(self):
-        for sname, scenario in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            rho_list = [scenario._mpisppy_model.rho[ndn_i]._value
-                        for ndn_i in scenario._mpisppy_data.nonant_indices.keys()]
-            print(sname, 'PH OB rho values: ', rho_list[:5])
-            break
-
-    def _display_W_values(self):
-        for (sname, scenario) in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            W_list = [w._value for w in scenario._mpisppy_model.W.values()]
-            print(sname, 'W values: ', W_list)
-            break
-
-    def _display_xbar_values(self):
-        for (sname, scenario) in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            xbar_list = [scenario._mpisppy_model.xbars[ndn_i]._value
-                         for ndn_i in scenario._mpisppy_data.nonant_indices.keys()]
-            print(sname, 'PH OB xbar values: ', xbar_list)
-            break
-
-    def _set_gradient_rho(self):
-        self.grad_object.write_grad_rho()
-        rho_setter_kwargs = self.opt.options['rho_setter_kwargs'] \
-                            if 'rho_setter_kwargs' in self.opt.options \
-                            else dict()
-        for sname, scenario in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            rholist = self.rho_setter(scenario, **rho_setter_kwargs)
-            for (vid, rho) in rholist:
-                (ndn, i) = scenario._mpisppy_data.varid_to_nonant_index[vid]
-                scenario._mpisppy_model.rho[(ndn, i)] = rho
-
-    def _hack_set_rho(self):
-        # HACK to set specific rho values
-        rhoval = 0.002
-        for sname, scenario in self.opt.local_scenarios.items():
-            for ndn_i in scenario._mpisppy_data.nonant_indices.keys():
-                scenario._mpisppy_model.rho[ndn_i] = rhoval
-
-    def _update_weights_and_solve(self, iternum):
-        verbose = self.opt.options["verbose"]
-        self.opt.Compute_Xbar(verbose=verbose)
-        self.opt.Update_W(verbose=verbose)
-        # see if rho should be rescaled
-        if self.use_gradient_rho and iternum == 0:
-            self._set_gradient_rho()
-            self._display_rho_values()
-        if self.rho_rescale_factors is not None\
-           and iternum in self.rho_rescale_factors:
-            self._rescale_rho(self.rho_rescale_factors[iternum])
-        bound = self._phboundsolve(iternum) # keep it before calling _phsolve
-        self._phsolve(iternum)
-        return bound
-
-    def main(self):
-        self.ph_ob_prep()
-        self._rescale_rho(self.opt.options["ph_ob_initial_rho_rescale_factor"] )
-
-        self.trivial_bound = self._phsolve(0)
-        self.send_bound(self.trivial_bound)
-        self.opt.current_solver_options = self.opt.iterk_solver_options
-
-        self.B_iter = 1
-        self.opt.B_iter = self.B_iter
-        wtracker = WTracker(self.opt)
-
-        while not self.got_kill_signal():
-            # because of aph, do not check for new data, just go for it
-            self.send_bound(self._update_weights_and_solve(self.B_iter))
-            self.B_iter += 1
-            self.opt.B_iter = self.B_iter
-            wtracker.grab_local_Ws()
-
-    def finalize(self):
-        '''
-        Do one final lagrangian pass with the final
-        PH weights. Useful for when PH convergence
-        and/or iteration limit is the cause of termination
-        '''
-        self.final_bound = self._update_weights_and_solve(self.B_iter)
-        self.send_bound(self.final_bound)
-        return self.final_bound
diff --git a/mpisppy/generic_cylinders.py b/mpisppy/generic_cylinders.py
index 716059596..5157ae815 100644
--- a/mpisppy/generic_cylinders.py
+++ b/mpisppy/generic_cylinders.py
@@ -87,7 +87,6 @@ def _parse_args(m):
     cfg.relaxed_ph_args()
     cfg.fwph_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.subgradient_bounder_args()
     cfg.xhatshuffle_args()
     cfg.xhatxbar_args()
@@ -334,20 +333,6 @@ def _do_decomp(module, cfg, scenario_creator, scenario_creator_kwargs, scenario_
         if cfg.lagrangian_starting_mipgap is not None:
             vanilla.add_gapper(lagrangian_spoke, cfg, "lagrangian")
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = rho_setter,
-                                          all_nodenames = all_nodenames,
-                                          )
-        if cfg.sep_rho:
-            vanilla.add_sep_rho(ph_ob_spoke, cfg)
-        if cfg.coeff_rho:
-            vanilla.add_coeff_rho(ph_ob_spoke, cfg)
-        if cfg.sensi_rho:
-            vanilla.add_sensi_rho(ph_ob_spoke, cfg)
-
     # dual ph spoke
     if cfg.ph_dual:
         ph_dual_spoke = vanilla.ph_dual_spoke(*beans,
@@ -361,6 +346,8 @@ def _do_decomp(module, cfg, scenario_creator, scenario_creator_kwargs, scenario_
             vanilla.add_coeff_rho(ph_dual_spoke, cfg)
         if cfg.sensi_rho:
             vanilla.add_sensi_rho(ph_dual_spoke, cfg)
+        # TBD xxxxx add grad rho asap after PR#559 is merged
+        # Note: according to DLW, it is non-trivial to deal with the cfg args
 
     # relaxed ph spoke
     if cfg.relaxed_ph:
@@ -421,8 +408,6 @@ def _do_decomp(module, cfg, scenario_creator, scenario_creator_kwargs, scenario_
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(fw_spoke)
     if cfg.lagrangian:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)
     if cfg.ph_dual:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_dual_spoke)
     if cfg.relaxed_ph:
diff --git a/mpisppy/tests/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py b/mpisppy/tests/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
index c53974be4..2b859d182 100644
--- a/mpisppy/tests/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
+++ b/mpisppy/tests/examples/stoch_distr/stoch_distr_admm_cylinders.py
@@ -39,7 +39,6 @@ def _parse_args():
     cfg.xhatxbar_args()
     cfg.fwph_args()
     cfg.lagrangian_args()
-    cfg.ph_ob_args()
     cfg.tracking_args()
     cfg.add_to_config("run_async",
                          description="Run with async projective hedging instead of progressive hedging",
@@ -52,7 +51,7 @@ def _parse_args():
 
 def _count_cylinders(cfg):
     count = 1
-    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian", "ph_ob", "fwph"] #all the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
+    cfglist = ["xhatxbar", "lagrangian", "fwph"] #all the cfg arguments that create a new cylinders
     for cylname in cfglist:
         if cfg[cylname]:
             count += 1
@@ -127,13 +126,7 @@ def _wheel_creator(cfg, n_cylinders, scenario_creator, variable_probability, all
     if cfg.fwph:
         fw_spoke = vanilla.fwph_spoke(*beans, scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs)
 
-    # ph outer bounder spoke
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        ph_ob_spoke = vanilla.ph_ob_spoke(*beans,
-                                          scenario_creator_kwargs=scenario_creator_kwargs,
-                                          rho_setter = None,
-                                          all_nodenames=all_nodenames,
-                                          variable_probability=variable_probability)
+    # ph outer bounder spoke removed August 2025
 
     # xhat looper bound spoke
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
@@ -148,8 +141,6 @@ def _wheel_creator(cfg, n_cylinders, scenario_creator, variable_probability, all
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(fw_spoke)
     if cfg.lagrangian:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(lagrangian_spoke)
-    if cfg.ph_ob:
-        list_of_spoke_dict.append(ph_ob_spoke)
     if cfg.xhatxbar:
         list_of_spoke_dict.append(xhatxbar_spoke)
 
diff --git a/mpisppy/tests/straight_tests.py b/mpisppy/tests/straight_tests.py
index 72cca9dbe..808ff1223 100644
--- a/mpisppy/tests/straight_tests.py
+++ b/mpisppy/tests/straight_tests.py
@@ -22,17 +22,6 @@ def _doone(cmdstr):
         badguys.append(f"Test failed with code {ret}:\n{cmdstr}")
 
 #####################################################
-# farmer
-example_dir = os.path.join(os.path.dirname(os.path.abspath(__file__)), '..', '..', 'examples', 'farmer', 'archive')
-fpath = os.path.join(example_dir, 'farmer_cylinders.py')
-
-cmdstr = f"python {fpath} --help"
-_doone(cmdstr)
-
-cmdstr = f"mpiexec -np 1 python {fpath} --help"
-_doone(cmdstr)
-
-
 # aircond
 example_dir = os.path.join(os.path.dirname(os.path.abspath(__file__)), '..', '..', 'examples', 'aircond')
 fpath = os.path.join(example_dir, 'aircond_cylinders.py')
diff --git a/mpisppy/utils/cfg_vanilla.py b/mpisppy/utils/cfg_vanilla.py
index 8037d0720..24f86c80c 100644
--- a/mpisppy/utils/cfg_vanilla.py
+++ b/mpisppy/utils/cfg_vanilla.py
@@ -27,7 +27,6 @@
 from mpisppy.cylinders.lagrangian_bounder import LagrangianOuterBound
 from mpisppy.cylinders.lagranger_bounder import LagrangerOuterBound
 from mpisppy.cylinders.subgradient_bounder import SubgradientOuterBound
-from mpisppy.cylinders.ph_ob import PhOuterBound
 from mpisppy.cylinders.xhatlooper_bounder import XhatLooperInnerBound
 from mpisppy.cylinders.xhatxbar_bounder import XhatXbarInnerBound
 from mpisppy.cylinders.xhatspecific_bounder import XhatSpecificInnerBound
@@ -682,7 +681,7 @@ def reduced_costs_spoke(
 
 
 # special lagrangian: computes its own xhat and W (does not seem to work well)
-# ph_ob_spoke is probably better
+# ph_dual is probably better
 def lagranger_spoke(
     cfg,
     scenario_creator,
@@ -1074,43 +1073,4 @@ def cross_scenario_cuts_spoke(
     return cut_spoke
 
 # run PH with smaller rho to compute LB
-def ph_ob_spoke(
-    cfg,
-    scenario_creator,
-    scenario_denouement,
-    all_scenario_names,
-    scenario_creator_kwargs=None,
-    rho_setter=None,
-    all_nodenames=None,
-    variable_probability=None,
-):
-    shoptions = shared_options(cfg)
-    ph_ob_spoke = {
-        "spoke_class": PhOuterBound,
-        "opt_class": PHBase,
-        "opt_kwargs": {
-            "options": shoptions,
-            "all_scenario_names": all_scenario_names,
-            "scenario_creator": scenario_creator,
-            "scenario_creator_kwargs": scenario_creator_kwargs,
-            'scenario_denouement': scenario_denouement,
-            "rho_setter": rho_setter,
-            "all_nodenames": all_nodenames,
-            "variable_probability": variable_probability,
-        }
-    }
-    if cfg.ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json is not None:
-        ph_ob_spoke["opt_kwargs"]["options"]\
-            ["ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json"]\
-            = cfg.ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json
-    ph_ob_spoke["opt_kwargs"]["options"]["ph_ob_initial_rho_rescale_factor"]\
-        = cfg.ph_ob_initial_rho_rescale_factor
-    if cfg.ph_ob_gradient_rho:
-        ph_ob_spoke["opt_kwargs"]["options"]\
-            ["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]\
-            = dict()
-        ph_ob_spoke["opt_kwargs"]["options"]\
-            ["ph_ob_gradient_rho"]["cfg"]\
-            = cfg
-
-    return ph_ob_spoke
+##def ph_ob_spoke( deprecated and replaced with ph_dual
diff --git a/mpisppy/utils/config.py b/mpisppy/utils/config.py
index ab9c8f16b..e10d9fedd 100644
--- a/mpisppy/utils/config.py
+++ b/mpisppy/utils/config.py
@@ -732,24 +732,7 @@ def subgradient_bounder_args(self):
 
 
     def ph_ob_args(self):
-
-        self.add_to_config("ph_ob",
-                            description="use PH to compute outer bound",
-                            domain=bool,
-                            default=False)
-        self.add_to_config("ph_ob_rho_rescale_factors_json",
-                            description="json file with {iternum: rho rescale factor} (default None)",
-                            domain=str,
-                            default=None)
-        self.add_to_config("ph_ob_initial_rho_rescale_factor",
-                            description="Used to rescale rho initially (will be done regardless of other rescaling (default 0.1)",
-                            domain=float,
-                            default=0.1)
-        self.add_to_config("ph_ob_gradient_rho",
-                            description="use gradient-based rho in PH OB",
-                            domain=bool,
-                            default=False)
-
+        raise RuntimeError("ph_ob (the --ph-ob option) and ph_ob_args were deprecated and replaced with ph_dual August 2025")
 
     def relaxed_ph_args(self):